Author Topic: Post surgery journal: MF/BMAC/Biocartilage for OCDs in right ankle  (Read 22247 times)

Offline cshires

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Well here I am, one day shy of being two weeks post-op. I had surgery on Jan 25 at HSS with Dr. Kennedy. This is the thread I'll use to post updates and questions for others. Here's a recap of how things went.

By way of reminder, I was diagonosed in July with a 5mm x 7mm medial OCD in my right ankle. Closer inspection of the MRI revealed a small (non-symptomatic) 4mm x 4mm OCD on the lateral side as well as a compromised ATFL ligament. In addition, I had a bone spur on the front of my ankle.

Preop appointment: Thankfully I arrived in NYC early for my preop appointment on the previous Thursday. Had I not done that, I would have had to reschedule my surgery as the biggest snowstorm on record (nearly) descended on Manhattan two days prior to my surgery date.

So about the preop appointment. Dr. Kennedy had me update my MRI the week before surgery. During the preop appointment he advised me that my ankle had deteriorated over the past six months. The medial lesion was now measuring somewhere near 1cm. This stunned me as I had remained nearly completely inactive for the six months prior to surgery - no running, hiking or even going for walks longer than a couple blocks. Dr. Kennedy let me know that there was a possibility of converting to OATS but he wouldn't know until he actually got a view inside my ankle. My lesion is a shoulder lesion and his concern was that for bigger lesions the repair could just "fall off" if the lesion was too big. He told me he felt there was only a small chance of needing to do OATS but wanted me to be prepared just in case. He also told me that the lesions had become cystic (they weren't before) and that he would have to do a bone graft from my heel.

Surgery: I've never had surgery before and I'll reiterate here what I've read many places: HSS is a class act as is Dr. Kennedy and his team. I felt confident that I was in the best hands and this did a lot to alleviate anxiety and fear. After the surgery was completed, Dr. Kennedy came and talked to me. He did not have to do OATS; in fact, the MRI over-estimated the size of the medial lesion. It turned out to be 6x8x2. The lateral lesion was 4x4x2. Bone grafts were not necessary for either. He MF'd both OCLs, used Biocartilage and BMAC on both sides, fixed my ligament and removed the bone spur.

One other thing of note (and I intend to ask more questions about this at my 6-week follow-up): Dr. Kennedy said that it was apparent that the injury had existed for quite some time. Given that I've never sprained my ankle and that this injury seemed to appear out of nowhere a year ago, I had speculated that it was from a recent (but unknown) event. Following the surgery, we now know this is most certainly not the case. Apparently my talus bone was very hard to drill into, so much so that he had to use something different than the traditional tools he usually uses. He was able to make the bone bleed and felt confident that other than my feeling more post-op medial pain, the surgery would have the same estimated 90% chance of success. In any case, the condition of the bone cleared up the mystery. I've apparently been hiking and running on a non-symptomatic deteriorating ankle for years.

Post-op: Here's a quick list of how things have gone along with some questions for folks who have been here.

I had a nerve block post-op and didn't start feeling any pain until about 36-hours after surgery.

The worst of the pain was days 2-5 and even then it was not unbearable with the pain meds. I was able to sleep 6-8 hours each night. (Unlike others though, I have not been sleeping a lot. I'm awake and working from bed during the day and am lucky to sleep a full eight hours at night.)

I've pretty much been off the pain meds now (including OTC meds) since day 9. I did however feel like I needed them up until Day 9. I've read accounts of people who were off them much earlier and have wondered what it means that I needed them longer. I did have surgery on three sides of my ankle (and a more intense drilling on the medial side) so perhaps this accounts for it. Is there anyone else who needed meds for over a week?

Currently the only real discomfort I have is an on-again/off-again numbness and tingling that occurs mostly at night. It seems to me that my foot/heel just gets weary of being in the same position and falls partially asleep. I've also had some heel discomfort inside the splint. This comes and goes. At times I've also been able to feel the medial wound area. Is this familiar to anyone else?

I've been elevating 23+ hours a day, only getting up for the occasional bathroom or kitchen trip. During the times where I'm really uncomfortable (mostly at night) I do find that I'm repositioning A LOT. I'm guessing this is normal but have wondered if I've had too much movement for the early days of being post-op. I'm most concerned about Biocartilage graft adhering and not messing that up. Any thoughts about this? Is it that fragile of an environment that shifting your leg a million times an hour could disrupt it? (This is my paranoia in full force here.)

I think that's pretty much it for now. I get the stitches out Wednesday and am put into a boot for two more weeks of non-weight bearing.

Would love some thoughts on the above from others who've been here before me.

Thanks, Christina

PS- The knee scooter is a dream. I haven't used crutches once.

« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 05:41:22 PM by cshires »

Offline jnj15

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Re: Post surgery journal: MF/BMAC/Biocartilage for OCDs in right ankle
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2016, 10:51:46 PM »
Christina, glad to hear everything went well!

I too was told I would need a bone graft from my heel because one of my lesions was cystic but in the end they didn't do it. I guess they only need to do it if the cystic area is of a certain depth.

I don't recall experiencing any numbness or tingling at any point, but nerve damage was explained to me as a risk (nerve damage) that should improve with time. However, they were very clear that some long-term nerve damage could be a risk. Hopefully it's just falling asleep though, as you described.

I remember feeling a throbbing pain where I had all the stuff done from time to time for weeks afterwards. I'm not sure if it was from the microfracture site or from the ligament repair. I also remember having much more pain in general from the site on the medial side where the bone spur was shaved down. I commented on this Even today I still have more stiffness in the medial side and am working on pushing through it to increase the ROM.

I think the MF site is pretty robust as long as you aren't weight bearing too early. I was also concerned about dislodging the 'stuff' and doubly so since I had it done on both sides of the joint. However, from reading my surgical report, what they do is seal the defect (filled with blood/BMAC/Biocartilage) with 'fibrin glue' and let it dry before closing you back up.

Best wishes for the rest of your recovery--things should be steadily improving from here!

Offline BLT

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Re: Post surgery journal: MF/BMAC/Biocartilage for OCDs in right ankle
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2016, 11:46:20 AM »
cshires - when MF only was performed on me back in 2010, I recall using Norco for about 5 days. This time around after Denovo I used Norco for about 3 days. I doubt there's any way to determine what the post-op pain should "be like." Pain is simply our response to a stimulus, and obviously we all don't respond to pain the same way. I'd be worried if you needed it beyond several weeks. There is also that short transition period where you're trying to slowly lay off on the pain killers...sometimes the pain is elevated a bit as your body is getting used to not having the medicine to help you out.

Naturally I was just as concerned about disrupting the "patch" and having it fall out of position. But then I thought back and told myself there's no way the surgeons didn't think about this. You might feel anxious during this time because you're wondering if this all worked, but until the scar tissues are torn and pain subsides 6+ months into this, you won't know for sure.

But rest assured...keep positive, I'm confident you'll feel great. I'm almost 13 months post-op, and I'm feeling great. I walk around with dress shoes without any pain now. It's amazing!!! Keep posting, we'll keep checking up on you here.

Offline casper1955

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Re: Post surgery journal: MF/BMAC/Biocartilage for OCDs in right ankle
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2016, 02:34:49 PM »
It took me 7 days to get completely off the pain killers.  After day one I cut the doseage in half and after a few more days I again cut the doseage by another half. 

As for your comment about the patch falling out my OS provided me with the following analogy I copied this from one of my previous posts

My lesion is 13 mm and was on the shoulder.  The way it was explained to me is we are filling a pothole.   The analogy went on that filling a pothole surrounded by good pavement has a better chance of lasting longer than filling a pothole on the edge of the roadway with pavement only on a couple of sides.,  The pothole on the shoulder has nothing to hold it in place on the side and therefore higher likelihood of failing

I am 11 months post op and feeling pretty good.  Some minor discomfort but nothing that stops me from doing anything.  I still do Range of Motion and the alphabet every day.  When the weather is good I walk 3 to 5 miles a day and in the bad weather I walk at the indoor track and only walk 2 to 3 miles a day.

My one year appointment is next month
Good luck  In retrospect it goes by pretty quickly.  At the time it seems like it will be forever. 

Offline cflip

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Re: Post surgery journal: MF/BMAC/Biocartilage for OCDs in right ankle
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2016, 01:41:33 AM »
I had mf surgery and needed the meds for well over a week.  I can't remember how long exactly, but I am pretty sure it was at least 2. I was worried because my doc said I shouldn't experience much pain at all. I was able to cut the dose in half early on.  My suggestion is to find something to immerse yourself in that will keep your mind active.  For me, that was playing guitar -- it helped way more than the pills did!


Offline BLT

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Re: Post surgery journal: MF/BMAC/Biocartilage for OCDs in right ankle
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2016, 12:07:42 PM »
I had mf surgery and needed the meds for well over a week.  I can't remember how long exactly, but I am pretty sure it was at least 2. I was worried because my doc said I shouldn't experience much pain at all. I was able to cut the dose in half early on.  My suggestion is to find something to immerse yourself in that will keep your mind active.  For me, that was playing guitar -- it helped way more than the pills did!
It goes to show we all will react differently after surgery, and we have to take pain medication based on our own specific needs. Go with your gut and make sure to not over do it :-)

Offline cshires

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Re: Post surgery journal: MF/BMAC/Biocartilage for OCDs in right ankle
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2016, 09:57:06 PM »
Thanks everyone for your replies and encouragement. The interaction on here has buoyed my spirits on many days.

On Wednesday of this week I had the splint removed and was put into a boot (16-days post surgery). Now I'm non-weight-bearing for another 1.5 weeks (total of 4); then I'll start gradually adding weight. Currently I'm completely off the pain meds and have been now for almost a week. I've also been instructed to do ROM exercises twice-daily for 20-minutes. Interestingly, I'm only supposed to do up-down ROM exercises and not side-to-side or alphabet-type exercises. It was explained to me that those exercises early on have a shearing effect and to only do the up-down motion.

At this point I'm basically just navigating the day-to-day monotony and annoyance of having this boot on my foot. Sleeping in this boot is challenge for sure. :)

One thing of note- I'm not feeling any pain to speak of although there is discomfort on the medial side where I had the more intense drilling. On the lateral side where I had the ligament reconstruction and smaller OCL I feel nothing. However, the medial side has occasional soreness and discomfort which is a source of concern for me as this was where the larger, uncontained defect was (this was also the only part of my injury that was symptomatic). I'm hoping the sensations I'm feeling are all just part of the healing process.

As an aside, my 2.5 week post-op was at a local office near me (not at HSS.) While the nurse was checking me in, she started talking about an ankle injury she had last year. At the time, she didn't know my specific injury. As we continued to talk I discovered that she too had an OCL that she had repaired last year. We were both quite surprised that we each had the others "rare" injury. Can't tell you how it cheered me to be talking with someone who was, as she put it, back to normal...dancing, long walks, etc. She inadvertently stomped her foot one time during our conversation and I marveled to observe that she doesn't even think about her ankle anymore.

That's all for now. My next appointment is at six weeks back in NYC.

Offline BLT

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Re: Post surgery journal: MF/BMAC/Biocartilage for OCDs in right ankle
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2016, 04:54:44 PM »
Thanks everyone for your replies and encouragement. The interaction on here has buoyed my spirits on many days.

On Wednesday of this week I had the splint removed and was put into a boot (16-days post surgery). Now I'm non-weight-bearing for another 1.5 weeks (total of 4); then I'll start gradually adding weight. Currently I'm completely off the pain meds and have been now for almost a week. I've also been instructed to do ROM exercises twice-daily for 20-minutes. Interestingly, I'm only supposed to do up-down ROM exercises and not side-to-side or alphabet-type exercises. It was explained to me that those exercises early on have a shearing effect and to only do the up-down motion.

At this point I'm basically just navigating the day-to-day monotony and annoyance of having this boot on my foot. Sleeping in this boot is challenge for sure. :)

One thing of note- I'm not feeling any pain to speak of although there is discomfort on the medial side where I had the more intense drilling. On the lateral side where I had the ligament reconstruction and smaller OCL I feel nothing. However, the medial side has occasional soreness and discomfort which is a source of concern for me as this was where the larger, uncontained defect was (this was also the only part of my injury that was symptomatic). I'm hoping the sensations I'm feeling are all just part of the healing process.

As an aside, my 2.5 week post-op was at a local office near me (not at HSS.) While the nurse was checking me in, she started talking about an ankle injury she had last year. At the time, she didn't know my specific injury. As we continued to talk I discovered that she too had an OCL that she had repaired last year. We were both quite surprised that we each had the others "rare" injury. Can't tell you how it cheered me to be talking with someone who was, as she put it, back to normal...dancing, long walks, etc. She inadvertently stomped her foot one time during our conversation and I marveled to observe that she doesn't even think about her ankle anymore.

That's all for now. My next appointment is at six weeks back in NYC.
Glad to hear you are off the pain medication. For the first six months, pain came and went in different places, so it was really hard to tell what the outcome would be. I stayed hopeful and it seems to be working out. I haven't jogged or ran since finishing physical therapy, but that nagging residual pain I complained about in my journal post is completely gone now. We'll keep checking up on you here. Wish you the best!

Offline cshires

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Re: Post surgery journal: MF/BMAC/Biocartilage for OCDs in right ankle
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2016, 03:02:05 PM »
Thanks BLT!

Latest update: just a few days away from being ONE MONTH (!!) post op. Wow. It has simultaneously been the longest and shortest month of my life. This event was my induction into doctors and hospitals and surgeries and while I hope to never go down this path again, I'll be a little bit less of a basket case in the event that I do.

So, this Monday (at 4 weeks) I'm supposed to begin weight bearing: adding 10% a day over 10-days. I have this intuitive sense that my ankle isn't ready yet. Most of my discomfort is still on the medial side where I had the larger defect that received a pretty intense drilling (along with Biocartilage and BMAC.) It feels quite tender-- still bruised, sometimes has random weird, fleeting pain, and is the only area of my ankle with persistent swelling (right over the area that was drilled.) In a word, it still feels injured.

My question is this: how do you know when you're ready?  Are there those of you who had the feeling/symptoms I describe above but went on to slow, successful weight-bearing? Or does it sound like I should wait?

Thanks as always!
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 03:03:57 PM by cshires »

Offline cshires

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Re: Post surgery journal: MF/BMAC/Biocartilage for OCDs in right ankle
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2016, 12:25:11 PM »
Alrighty OCD friends, help me out with this.

I'm one month post-op tomorrow, at which point I'm supposed to start adding 10% of my body weight each day over 10 days.

The lateral side of my ankle is doing great - There is little to no swelling most of the time and I feel no pain where the ligament was reconstructed and the OCL was drilled and patched.

However, the medial side (where the larger, symptomatic defect was) is still sore and has a constant bubble of swelling right over where the defect is. This never goes away. I'm not seeing or feeling improvement in this area from day to day. The pain is not excruciating or extreme - it simply feels consistently tender and sore and injured. I can't imagine putting weight on it- I'm pretty sure that would feel quite painful.

I've heard many people say they knew from the beginning that their MF failed. How do I interpret this in light of the swelling and tenderness (and seeming lack of improvement) I'm having four weeks out? Am I expecting too much too soon?

Thanks for sharing your experience,
Christina



Offline casper1955

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Re: Post surgery journal: MF/BMAC/Biocartilage for OCDs in right ankle
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2016, 11:56:57 AM »
I initially pushed to hard at first moving to total weight bearing and no boot over a two week period.  Prior to that I had little to no swelling.  Going to fast the ankle told me by swelling up like a grapefruit.  I went back in the boot for about 4 more weeks and when I came out it was much slower.  I have minimal to no pain from 1 week post op to now 12 months post op.  The only thing I have not done is jump rope, jump or run.  I do walk 3 - 5 miles a day at a 4 mile an hour pace. 

The ankle will let you know if you are pushing to hard either through pain or swelling.  Take it slow though you do not want to back into a boot and crutches for an additional 4 weeks if you can avoid it.

On a side note reading another post today I saw mention of reference to feeling pain in the peroneal tendon area.  How many people other than those suffering a peroneal injury or ocd injury even know what or where the peroneal tendon is.  For that matter the anatomy of the ankle. 

Offline cflip

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Re: Post surgery journal: MF/BMAC/Biocartilage for OCDs in right ankle
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2016, 08:57:03 PM »
I wouldn't worry. I had pain and swelling at the one month mark.  When my doctor told me to start putting wait on it, I thought he was crazy.  At first it's tough, but it gets easier.  Just don't over do it.  If there is pain, then stop.  Things got better for me when I started PT. 

At the three month mark, right when I had to go back to work, the pain returned and continued to get worse.  My pain level was what it was prior to surgery and I thought that the operation had failed.  That went away and I have been mostly pain free since (10 months out).  I was slacking a bit on my PT exercises, so I think that may have attributed to it.  When I started doing them religiously again, things got better.

It has only been a month for you so I wouldn't expect to see a lot of improvement. Keep up with the exercises and gradually put weight on it when you can.  I'm sure you will notice a difference in the coming weeks.

Offline Kerri

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Re: Post surgery journal: MF/BMAC/Biocartilage for OCDs in right ankle
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2016, 11:53:31 PM »
Hi guys -

I have had an OCD lesion on the left side diagnosed since 2011.  I'm at the point of looking to surgery, since nothing else has helped.  Two questions:

- what have people heard or experienced about denovo vs biocartilege?

- in addition to Dr. Kennedy, any recommendations at HSS in NYC?  (Thoughts about O'Malley and/or Drakos)?

Thanks!

Offline cshires

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Re: Post surgery journal: MF/BMAC/Biocartilage for OCDs in right ankle
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2016, 06:27:37 PM »
Time for my 6-week update!

I flew back to HSS and had my 6-week follow up with Dr. Kennedy on Monday of this week.

In a nutshell, my x-rays look good. The OCL is still visible but that's expected at this point. I was told to ditch the boot and to "start treating your ankle like a normal ankle."

They had me start progressive weight-bearing at the beginning of week 5. The goal was to be 100% weight-bearing within 10 days; however, I did not keep to that schedule. I'm halfway through week 6 and still am only partially weight bearing. I'm back in a shoe and walking with both crutches but still favoring my surgical foot. I started PT yesterday and my therapist's opinion is that I don't yet have the strength and flexibility to be 100% weight-bearing. I would concur with the therapist on this and am surprised how my surgical team thinks I should have progressed to 100% weight-bearing within those 10 days (without PT).

Regarding pain and other odd sensations, there is such a mixed report of what to expect after surgery. Some people report that they feel zero pain after surgery and upon weight bearing. I will say that I am not in that group. I'm also quite sensitive to pain and odd sensations so it's possible that more registers with me than might register with others. Now that I'm weight-bearing and doing PT exercises, I definitely do have tenderness and pain that I would say is low on the pain scale (perhaps a 2 or 3 at most.) I think I'll have a better idea of things once I'm walking unassisted.

The only other thing to note is that my heel is partially numb still. This became more apparent once I got into a shoe and started used my foot for walking. Sometimes there's a mild burning sensation when the heel is resting as well. Kennedy's office has said this is something to keep an eye on but they believe it will resolve over time, especially since it's only partially numb. If anyone else has experienced this, I'd love to know about it.

Next appoint at HSS is in 6 more weeks. In the meantime, I'm going to try and learn how to walk again!  ;)

Thanks always to those who provide encouragement and perspective along the way.

Christina
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 06:30:19 PM by cshires »

Offline jnj15

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Re: Post surgery journal: MF/BMAC/Biocartilage for OCDs in right ankle
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2016, 08:36:21 AM »
Christina, full weight bearing in normal shoes at ~6 weeks?? That kind of scares me, honestly, but Dr. Kennedy is the authority so I won't question his recommendation any further. I myself did not start wearing normal shoes until 4 months out, but that was certainly conservative. Walking around in a boot isn't so bad so I wasn't particularly eager to get out of it. Please be careful and listen to your body, e.g. go back in the boot for a day or two if it swells up more than normal or hurts!